We know there is a real problem, awareness is not the issue. (I've been aware of it since the mid 90's) It is ignored by large industries and governments. The incessant pounding of the useless drum of individual action continues to go absolutely nowhere. We need government and industry to take action not individuals. I will no longer placate this idea that individual action is at all useful.
> The incessant pounding of the useless drum of individual action continues to go absolutely nowhere. We need government and industry to take action not individuals.
It's the incessent pounding of your drum that goes nowhere, of course. Lots of people acting individually is what makes things happen - including in government. They won't act unless people demonstrate they are serious about it.
> I will no longer placate this idea that individual action is at all useful.
The problem is not that individual action is not useful, it’s that governments and companies are actively discouraging it, because every success for climate change is a bad news item. People buying less cars? Climate change win, economic problem. People buying less stuff, consumption down? Huge climate change win, very bad economic news. Even on progressive news outlets they’re doing it.
Here in Europe even before Trump’s second mandate it was clear governments didn’t really want individual action to take off. And it’s even worse now. Because short and mid term it’s a choice between climate and GDP. And western governments and companies are fundamentally incapable of long term action that is painful short term.
I would agree with you, except that the government (eg. in Germany) even battle climate tech when it’s good for the country and the economy. WHO wouldn’t want to be energy independent?
And yet, the Conservative Party in germany once killed the entire solar industry (who then moved to china); and is about to do it again, now! Both times we are losing about 50k jobs in that sector.
The question is: why would they do that, if the economy is oh so important to the conservatives?
This happens even today. If a knowledgeable person leaves a company and no KT (or more likely, poor KT) takes place, then there will be no one left to understand how certain systems work. This means the company will have to have a new developer go in and study the code and then deduce how it works. In our new LLM world, the developer could even have an LLM construct an overview for him/her to come up to speed more quickly.
Yes but every time the "why" is obscured perhaps not completely because there's no finished overview or because the original reason cannot be derived any longer from the current state of affairs. Its like the movie memento: you're trying to piece together a story from fragments that seem incoherent.
Most people have no idea how to hunt, make a fire, or grow food. If all grocery stores and restaurants run out of food for a long enough time people will starve. This isn't a problem in practice though, because there are so many grocery stores and restaurants and supply chains source from multiple areas that the redundant and decentralized nature makes it not a problem. Thus it is the same with making your own food. Eventually if you have enough robots or food replicators around knowing how to make food becomes irrelevant, because you always will be able to find one even if yours is broken. (Note: we are not there yet)
That is short hand. The problem exists of course, but it is improbable that it will actually occur in our lifetimes. An asteroid could slam into the earth or a gamma ray burst could sanitize the planet of all life. We could also experience nuclear war. These are problems that exist, yet we all just blissfully go on about our lives, b/c there is basically nothing that can be done to stop these things if they do happen and they likely won't. Basically we should only worry about these problems in so much as we as a species are able to actually do something about them.
> Most people have no idea how to hunt, make a fire, or grow food
That's a bizarre claim, confidently stated.
Of course I can make a fire, cook and my own food. You can, too. When it comes to hunting, skinning and the cutting of animals, that takes a bit more practice but anyone can manage something even if the result isn't pretty.
If stores ran out of food we would have devastating problems but because of specialization, just because we live in cities now you simply can't go out hunting even if you wanted to. Plus there is probably much more pressing problems to take care of, such as the lack of water and fuel.
If most people actually couldn't cook their own food, should they need, that would be a huge problem. Which makes the comparison with IT apt.
I don't think they're saying _you_ can't do those things, just that most people can't which I have to agree with.
They're not saying people can't learn those things either, but that's the practice you're talking about here. The real question is, can you learn to do it before you starve or freeze to death? Or perhaps poison yourself because you ate something you shouldn't or cooked it badly.
Can you list a situation where this matters that you know this personally?
Maybe if you end up alone and lost in a huge forest or the Outback, but this is a highly unlikely scenario.
If society falls apart cooking isn’t something you need to be that worried about unless you survive the first few weeks. Getting people to work together with different skills is going to be far more beneficial.
The existential crisis part for me is that no-one (or not enough people) have the skills or knowledge required to do these things. Getting people to work together only works if some people have those skills to begin with.
I also wasn't putting the focus is on cooking, the ability to hunt/gather/grow enough food and keep yourself warm are far more important.
And you are far more optimistic about people than me if you think people working together is the likely scenario here.
>the ability to hunt/gather/grow enough food and keep yourself warm are far more important
These are very important when you're alone. Like deep in the woods with a tiny group maybe.
The kinds of problems you'll actually see are something going bad and there being a lot of people around trying to survive on ever decreasing resources. A single person out of 100 can teach people how to cook, or hunt, or grow crops.
If things are that bad then there is nearly a zero percent change that any of those, other than maybe clean water, are going to be your biggest issue. People that do form groups and don't care about committing acts of violence are going to take everything you have and leave you for dead if not just outright kill you. You will have to have a big enough group to defend your holdings 24/7 with the ability to take some losses.
Simply put there is not enough room on the planet for hunter gathers and 8 billion people. That number has to fall down to the 1 billion or so range pretty quickly, like we saw around the 1900s.
> The real question is, can you learn to do it before you starve or freeze to death? Or perhaps poison yourself because you ate something you shouldn't or cooked it badly.
You can eat some real terrible stuff and like 99.999% of the time only get the shits, which isn't really a concern if you have good access to clean drinking water and can stay hydrated.
The overwhelming majority of people probably would figure it out even if they wind up eating a lot of questionable stuff in the first month and productivity in other areas would dedicate more resources to it.
You think that the majority of people actually know how to do those things successfully in the absence of modern logistics or looking up how to do it online?
I have a general idea of how those things work, but successfully hunting an animal isn't something I have ever done or have the tools (and training on those tools) to accomplish.
Which crops can I grow in my climate zone to actually feed my family, and where would I get seeds and supplies to do so? Again I might have some general ideas here but not specifics about how to be successful given short notice.
I might successfully get a squirrel or two, or get a few plants to grow, but the result is still likely starvation for myself and my family if we were to attempt full self-reliance in those areas without preparation.
In the same way that I have a general idea of how CPU registers, cache, and instructions work but couldn't actually produce a working assembly program without reference materials.
I mean before you stave to death because you don’t have food in your granary from last year, you don’t even have the land to hunt or plant food so it’s not even relevant
Ok, poof. Now everyone knows how to hunt, farm, and cook.
What problem does this solve? In the event of breakdown of society there is nowhere near enough game or arable land near, for example, New York City to prevent mass starvation if the supply chain breaks down totally.
This is a common prepper trope, but it doesn't make any sense.
The actual valuable skill is trade connections and community. A group of people you know and trust, and the ability to reach out and form mini supply chains.
Preppers are maybe the worst of the nonsense cosplay subcultures in modern memory. The moment things go south the people who come out ahead are always the people able to convince and control their fellow humans. The weirdo in the woods with the bunker gets his food stolen on like day 12. The post apocalypse warlord makes it through just fine. Better, maybe!
The key to survival has always been tribal dynamics. This wouldn't change in the apocalypse.
> Most people have no idea how to hunt, make a fire, or grow food. If all grocery stores and restaurants run out of food for a long enough time people will starve.
I doubt people would starve. It's trivial to figure out the hunting and fire part in enough time that that won't happen. That said, I think a lot of people will die, but it will be as a result of competition for resources.
People would absolutely starve, especially in the cities.
It’s just not possible to feed 8 billion people without the industrial system of agriculture and food distribution. There aren’t enough wild animals to hunt.
If I could hunt, it wouldn't actually matter, because nearly all the animals I would want are in stables. So all I would need to do is find a large enough rock and throw it at them, until they die. The much larger problem would be to keep all the other humans from doing that before me.
Literally cryptocurrencies are the single greatest alternative ever made. Opt out of the system where the government can just print money into thin air and old guys drawing dots on a plot set interest rates in closed meetings. If you want to hedge USD exposure just buy a Bitcoin ETF or if you really can't stomach cryptocurrencies b/c you don't want to be ostracized from the orange site, buy Gold. We are not going back to the way the world was and if you have all your money in USD realize you are on a leaking boat.
It is entirely possible to manage funds in crypto for growth and move some amount into more liquid USD denominated assets or MMFs when you need liquidity.
--You don't want the bank to give you your money back?--
edit: I misunderstood, or do you mean why would you get your internet back? If you're not getting your internet back, I can only offer you're not getting your money back either.
If you can't enforce the law, then it is a bad law. Also, this is a problem that naturally solves itself over time, so no law was ever needed. The UX of the web degraded for everyone after GDPR was passed and that I think everyone can agree on.
If people care about privacy, then over time they will migrate to companies and services that respect their privacy. Government laws are broad based policies that always lack nuance. This is why it is better to let markets drive better outcomes organically.
> If you can't enforce the law, then it is a bad law.
Or, alternatively, you _could_ enforce the law but the resources to do so (people) are no longer available. This happens a lot in the US when the current admin doesn't feel it's important, so doesn't fund the enforcement agencies. And is particularly true more of codes/regulations (I get them confused) than of laws.
The government has outlawed murder but your local law enforcement isn't investigating the murders. You're blaming the lawmakers for writing "bad laws" in this situation, why?
First order of blame goes to the national DPAs for not carrying out their duties.
Second order of blame goes go to whichever EU authority is responsible for penalizing EU member states for non-compliance. There should be serious consequences for non-enforcement like frozen funding. (I don't know what the actual legal process is)
> If people care about privacy, then over time they will migrate to companies and services that respect their privacy.
This is just a libertarian fairy-tale that is designed to sound sensible and rational while being malicious in practice. It exploits information asymmetry, human ignorance, network effects, and our general inability to accurately assess long-term consequences, in order to funnel profits into the hands of the most unscrupulous businesses.
In other words, there's a reason why we have to have regulations that protect people from themselves (and protect well-being of society as a whole).
> The government has outlawed murder but your local law enforcement isn't investigating the murders. You're blaming the lawmakers for writing "bad laws" in this situation, why?
Investigating murders is enforceable. If law enforcement isn't doing their job then that is a different problem. By virtue of being on the Internet, tracking cookies span many legal jurisdictions (even ones outside of the EU that never agreed to GDPR) and therefore run into all sorts of different legal obstacles. Apples and oranges and all that.
> This is just a libertarian fairy-tale that is designed to sound sensible and rational while being malicious in practice. It exploits information asymmetry, human ignorance, network effects, and our general inability to accurately assess long-term consequences, in order to funnel profits into the hands of the most unscrupulous businesses.
No, it allows people to be adults and vote with their feet. We do this all the time in many other areas and it works. (Exactly what the free market is based on) This is not to say that there shouldn't be any privacy and anti-spam laws, but when it comes to allowing marketing/advertising the trade-off has been well understood for some time. We are all funneling a lot of profits into companies that provide software to serve up the cookie banner warnings now and the advertisers still end up getting lots of people's data. A poorly designed law is a bad law. Legally requiring consent upfront and the ramifications of that decision should have been thought through much more thoroughly.
> If law enforcement isn't doing their job then that is a different problem.
Yes, that is precisely the problem with GDPR, too. Enforcement is supposed to be carried out by national Data Protection Authorities but they just don't investigate. I've reported some clear cut violations and they never followed up on anything.
> By virtue of being on the Internet, tracking cookies span many legal jurisdictions (even ones outside of the EU that never agreed to GDPR) and therefore run into all sorts of different legal obstacles.
It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant to the general enforcement issue. Most DPAs seem to be failing to enforce even the simplest of cases. Let's chat about the edge cases and jurisdiction when the clear cut cases are being taken care of reliably.
> Yes, that is precisely the problem with GDPR, too. Enforcement is supposed to be carried out by national Data Protection Authorities but they just don't investigate. I've reported some clear cut violations and they never followed up on anything.
No, it's not the problem with GDPR. As explained earlier it has to do with jurisdictional overreach.
> It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant to the general enforcement issue. Most DPAs seem to be failing to enforce even the simplest of cases. Let's chat about the edge cases and jurisdiction when the clear cut cases are being taken care of reliably.
Edge cases and jurisdiction are at the heart of this issue and exactly why it is a bad law. This is exactly the baggage that bad laws create!
> It isn't that this can't be enforced, it just lagged because of the size and changes that this law brought.
How long have these laws been out and we are still dealing with these issues. They seem to have gotten worse, not better.
> How does it solve itself?
People build services that don't track others and people pay for those services. It's pretty simple.
> Due to website operators doing illegal things.
If it was so illegal it would be stopped, but apparently businesses are indeed complying with the law.
> Why would people care about something they don't know about?
It's well known that cookies track you across sites and some people choose not to use those sites. The sites are required to disclose this information, so users are definitely aware.
> How long have these laws been out and we are still dealing with these issues. They seem to have gotten worse, not better.
No, they have gotten better. Earlier reject all was barely seen on the internet. Now it is on the majority of places or at least in much more places. How is that getting worse? Can you please explain how it has gotten worse or why you think it has gotten worse?
> People build services that don't track others and people pay for those services. It's pretty simple.
How would an average individual know that a service is tracking them if the service doesn't need their consent for it?
> If it was so illegal it would be stopped, but apparently businesses are indeed complying with the law.
GDPR art. 7.3:
"The data subject shall have the right to withdraw his or her consent at any time. 2The withdrawal of consent shall not affect the lawfulness of processing based on consent before its withdrawal. 3Prior to giving consent, the data subject shall be informed thereof. 4It shall be as easy to withdraw as to give consent."
So the law states that it must be as easy to reject cookies as to accept. That means that it is illegal to hide reject all.
In the parent post of this thread there is even a link about a court case:
So has your opinion with this information changed on who is to blame for the bad UX? If not, why not?
> It's well known that cookies track you across sites and some people choose not to use those sites. The sites are required to disclose this information, so users are definitely aware.
Maybe now, because of GDPR forcing site operators for asking consent to being tracked. But you said that it would happen organically without GDPR. I'm confused, even you, in the last sentence say that sites are required to disclose information but that is because of GDPR. It isn't the market somehow reaching that point organically. So which is it because you seem to agree that GDPR is needed but at the same time you are saying that it isn't needed and the market would sort it out. I'm really confused now.
There were laws requiring disclosure before GDPR and there were already tools to disable or prevent trackers built into browsers or adding on with plugins. (organic market developments) You also had alternatives to services that used the lack of tracking as a reason to choose a particular service offering over another. GDPR ended up just making these disclosures more in your face. Text like "It shall be as easy to withdraw as to give consent" is so vague as to be useless, which is why there are so many disagreeing opinions are whether companies with their current implementations are complying or not. GDPR is a bad law and in general the EU hasn't learned it doesn't get to enforce its laws in countries outside of its jurisdiction.
