Thing to note here is that the ocean currents to Hakodate come from the West Coast of Japan, and Fukushima is on the Eastern coast. Not saying it’s not likely the two are linked, but it seems there could be other things at play. Like toxic leaks somewhere else in south east Asia.
Not to mention that large fish kills aren't unheard of, and are increasing in frequency and scope as warming waters, pollution and over-fishing damage the oceans and everything that lives in them. Look at what's left of coral reefs in places like Australia, and a bunch of dead sardines feels downright understandable.
Radiation isn’t some dark magic. We understand it quite well. It’s like recycling pee on the ISS for drinking water; people are inordinately freaked out by something for fundamentally invalid reasons.
Did no-one actually read the article? This happening in Hakodate in Hokkaido, not anywhere near Fukushima.
"Experts have speculated that the migratory fish in both areas had become stranded after being chased to the point of exhaustion by amberjack and other predatory fish. Mass mortality events can also occur when there are sudden drops in the water temperature, causing the fish to go into shock, they added."
"Images of the fish have been widely shared on social media – many accompanied by Fukushima conspiracy theories."
"“There have been no abnormalities found in the results of water-monitoring surveys,” the fisheries agency said, referring to the water that has been pumped out of the Fukushima plant so far. “We’re concerned about the proliferation of information that’s not based on scientific evidence.”"
I'm shocked that Hacker News of all places would immediately leap to conspiracy theories.
> Don't post this kind of scaremongering when you don't have the facts. The water being released from Fukushima is being monitored more than probably any other nuclear facility on the planet right now. You could drink it. https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/08/1140037
Well, authorities have also said the area around Palestine, Ohio, is safe after the massive toxic chemical spill, and I don't really believe that. I'm not arguing the water from Fukushima is not safe, but I will absolutely argue that one should be skeptical of authorities saying "do not worry everything is fine"
China can pop a geiger counter 12 miles offshore if they like. We don't have to take Japan's word for it; the IAEA is monitoring, and significant radiation releases are hard to hide.
The physics here is not on the side of conspiracy theorists.
> China, which opposed the release and imposed a ban on Japanese seafood, has been accused of hypocrisy since its own nuclear plants routinely pump wastewater with higher levels of tritium than that found in Fukushima’s discharge.
I have a vial of radioactive tritium on my keychain as a novelty.
I’m not shocked. People are deeply uneducated about nuclear energy, nuclear disaster cleanup, and radiation so you’re going to get the poorly educated piling in here spouting nonsense.
In true Gell-Mann amnesia fashion we will then see their posts on other tech topics and forget how off base, conspiratorial, or crackpot they were about this and engage with them despite their obvious inability to reason.
That has nothing to do with being un-educated on nuclear power, but rather a, sadly, common kneejerk reaction on HN where people read the headline and then jump from there to whatever biased conclusion they want.
What would you say are the long-term negative effects of the biggest
nuclear diasters that we have had so far?
and what could be done better?
What would make you oppose building new reactors?
I dont buy the 100% pro nuclear speaking points.
Nor do I buy the 100% against nuclear speaking points
I do have a family who have suffered from the debris from Chernobyl.
as did their communities.
Yes. Are experts the only ones who are allowed to speculate ?
> Mass mortality events can also occur when there are sudden drops in the water temperature
If we’re enumerating things that can occur…
I mean, there’s no evidence for those two scenarios these experts have speculated on either right? It wouldn’t be speculation otherwise.
> fisheries agency said
You mean the same people who have a vested economic interest?
> "“There have been no abnormalities found in the results of water-monitoring surveys,”
The very premise of conspiracy theorists is that authorities are not to be trusted. There’s no intellectual debate to be had if you’re presuming the authorities to be definitive.
It’s dogmatism.
This comes a day after cabinet members resign over fundraising fraud.
> immediately leap to conspiracy theories
Why are you immediately leaping to the conclusion that they are conspiracy theories? Japan is no stranger to cover ups. We don’t have to talk about war crimes. Just look at Carlos Ghosn.
You can call it scientific or healthy skepticism, too.
The real question is why is there a growing level of distrust? Governments are telling people central banks are working to their benefit and the economy is doing great, meanwhile real wages have declined and wealth disparity widens. In a country where salary raises are 1%, maybe, and now everyday items at the convenient store are going up a ten yen coin or two, it doesn’t take Chinese propaganda to make even Japanese people grow skeptical of authorities. It FEELS like the BOJ’s actions prioritize corporate and the asset-wielding class’ interests first.
The media only covers Japanese people support for one particular American stance on a current geopolitical issue. I’ve not seen this on the ground, but have seen people here holding pickets for the exact opposite stance. Japan ranks pretty poor on freedom of the press. https://amp.dw.com/en/why-japan-ranks-poorly-in-press-freedo...
> proliferation of information that’s not based on scientific evidence
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - Karl Popper, philosopher of science.
Speaking about the lack of evidence, there’s not much evidence of the facilities on Ōkunoshima because the staff were instructed to destroy it all.
I’ve been to all 47 prefectures of Japan atleast 3 times over now, and the most dystopian place is Gunkanjima. It’s controversial that a place of industrialists could be considered a world heritage, even by local Japanese people, but Mitsubishi Heavy Industry has good lobbyists. It was and still is a company town, where they control the narrative. It’s what I imagine a tour in North Korea would be like. Meanwhile, the one museum in the city to discuss slave labor was barraged with Google reviews for being a conspiracy.
As far as the Japanese academic institutions are concerned, Nanjing is a conspiracy that never happened and never taught. One of the largest shrines in the country enshrines convicted war criminals where annual festivals drawing hundreds of thousands of visitors occur. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine
Here’s a list of museums in Japan that right-winged Japanese people consider conspiracies and leave 1 star reviews for:
- Oka Masaharu Museum, Nagasaki
- Okunoshima Poison Gas Museum (where I learned that locals didn’t know poison gas was being experimented. They were sure to place it far away from Tokyo because they didn’t want to contaminate rich/city people)
- Kyoto Museum for World Peace (as a rule of thumb, if a museum in Japan mentions Peace, it’s some kind of propaganda, whether left or right)
- Bonus: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimizuka. This one is not a disputed controversial or conspiracy, but just find it interesting that it’s on some random unassuming street without anyone noticing, despite being in walking distance of the most crowded tourist areas in Kyoto
You can’t even get most Samsung products in this country, maybe except a few flagship phones, because Samsung replaced Japanese emojis with Korean ones. https://blog.emojipedia.org/samsung-puts-japan-back-on-the-m.... The relevance here is that these countries will do things out of dysfunction, pettiness, malice and/or incompetency, and rarely out of nobility and honor. Maybe you’re influenced by this Western-centric depiction and Hollywood trope: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=giBmzgW-iOk
> Yes. Are experts the only ones who are allowed to speculate ?
Experts (and here, it's scientists, not economists or whatever) speculations are based on field knowledge and current facts.
> authorities are not to be trusted [...] Japan is no stranger to cover ups [...] etc
Ok. Since Japan "can't be trusted", would you say that UN scientific committees can, on scientific subjects? Like IPCC group 1 and 2? Here is the IPCC group 1 equivalent for radiations:
Could also be a bacterial bloom that extracted all oxygen from the water and the fish all died due to this. I've seen this before though I can't seem to find evidence for this.
> Town officials in Hakodate urged local people not to consume the stranded fish amid reports that some were gathering quantities to sell or eat.
A sign of the times compared to Japan’s days of excess peaking in the 80s. If you talk to older Japanese people, those who were in their 20s-30s during the 80s, it’s pretty common to hear about them visiting or even living in LA and NYC. Nowadays, only a third of Japanese people even have passports and Japan ranks lower in English literacy then developing countries like Vietnam.
You’re saying this as if I am condescending on Japanese people.
Something tells me the people negatively reacting to my comment are those who armchair worship the idea of Japan and its cultural exports, then put Japan on a golden pedestal.
Americas the #1 economy, doesn’t mean the bottom rung of society is doing well or that it’s a desirable place to live. The economic ranking is irrelevant here.
I actually live here and my plight is with the working class people who are struggling to get by.
You're assuming an absolute. If none of the fish had moved to fresher water, I imagine there'd be a lot more fish washing ashore. If all of the fish had moved to fresher water, there would be no fish washing ashore. Also, abnormal ocean currents have caused this before.
I am not asserting anything Japan is asserting that they have no idea what the problem is, or why it is happening, but after zero investigating, have asserted them dumping radiation into the ocean is not the cause - without any proof.
which claim was made? the only claim I see is Japan asserting that it has nothing to do with the radioactive waste they are dumping into the ocean - I say the burden of proof is on them, since that is the claim they are making.
Where are you seeing Japan making that claim? From the article:
> The report noted that dead fish had begun washing ashore almost four months after the plant began discharging the water – which contains small quantities of the radioactive isotope tritium – into the Pacific.
> But no one has been able to confirm the cause. “The cause is unknown at the moment,” Mikine Fujiwara, a local fisheries official, told the newspaper. “We plan to sample the seawater at the site and examine it to uncover the cause.”
Don't post this kind of scaremongering when you don't have the facts. The water being released from Fukushima is being monitored more than probably any other nuclear facility on the planet right now. You could drink it.
This should almost be pinned. I thought this was common knowledge. I don't understand if people are ignorant of this or are completely ignoring it for some reason.
I don't care if I get downvoted for this, I have to respond to being labelled a scaremonger, and this blatant acceptance of the Japanese government's view.
There are two sides to the "facts" regarding the Japanese release of the Fukushima water. I presented a hypothesis, presented both sides, and suggested scientific analysis that if done could confirm or fail to confirm that hypothesis. To call that scaremongering shows a lack of understanding of the English language, among other lacks.
Yes, Japan says the ALPS treatment system removes everything except Tritium, and it says the level of Tritium is safe to drink according to international standards[1]. However, as shown below there are a number of organizations who do not agree with or trust Japan's assertions of safety.
Panels on public policy in Japan also point out that there are no studies on the long term effects of Tritium[2].
Greenpeace and 6 UN Rapporteurs (the people UN special committees have appointed to report on their proceedings) condemned the water release as potentially further harmful to the people of Fukushima and the marine ecosystem [3][4][5].
U.S. National Association of Marine Laboratories expressed their opposition to the plan and stated that “there was a lack of adequate and accurate scientific data supporting Japan's assertion of safety" [6].
On a personal note, I've worked on three different U.S. military bases. All three had problems with groundwater contaminants from jet fuels and other things. All three had tests that certified 'the levels of contaminants are below danger levels and the water is safe to drink'. The majority of the people I knew at all three bases drank bottled water. On two of those bases I was explicitly warned I shouldn't drink the water, to get bottled water, when I start work on the base.
The definition of safety is also suspect when the people defining it have a vested interest in whatever it is being safe. Japan's release of the water has to be viewed as safe, because if otherwise then the implications and consequences from the rest of the world would be untenable for Japan.
[1] "The subcommittee on handling of the ALPS treated water report" (PDF). Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. 10 February 2020. pp. 12, 16, 17, 33, 34. Archived (PDF) from the original on 22 December 2020. Retrieved 10 April 2020.
[2] Ōshima, Kenichi; Mitsuta, Kanna; Gotō, Manashi (2021-04-11). "福島第一原発のALPS（多核種除去設備）処理汚染水海洋放出問題についての緊急声明". 原子力市民委員会 [Citizens' Commission on Nuclear Energy]. Tokyo. Archived from the original on 2021-04-11.
[3] Greenpeace International (13 April 2021). "The Japanese government's decision to discharge Fukushima contaminated water ignores human rights and international maritime law". Greenpeace. Archived from the original on 15 April 2021. Retrieved 15 April 2021.
[4] Tuncak, Baskut; Fakhri, Michael; Voule, Clément Nyaletsossi; Calí-Tzay, José Francisco (2020-06-09). "Fukushima: Japan must not ignore human rights obligations on nuclear waste disposal – UN experts". Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (press release). Archived from the original on 2020-06-15.
[5] Orellana, Marcos A.; Fakhri, Michael; Boyd, David (2021-04-15). "Japan: UN experts say deeply disappointed by decision to discharge Fukushima water". Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (press release). Archived from the original on 2021-04-15.
[6] "Despite opposition, Japan may soon dump Fukushima wastewater into the Pacific". www.science.org. Archived from the original on 2023-01-25. Retrieved 2023-01-26.
